AUP. Ep. 31 Black In The City


Transcribed: Cameron Blackwell

Completed: 12/13/21

Cortney Wills: [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to Acting Up the podcast that dives deep into the world of TV and film that highlights our people, our culture, and our stories. I’m your host, Cortney Wills, entertainment director at theGrio. And this week we’re speaking to a couple of women who are really shaking things up on the small screen. We’ve got Jerrie Johnson, one of the stars of Amazon Prime’s new hit series Harlem, along with Nicole Ari Parker, about her co-starring role in And Just Like That. We’ve got one of the stars of Amazon Prime’s new hit series Harlem, Jerrie Johnson, brought to us by the incomparable Tracy Oliver. The show focuses on four friends navigating life, love, and career in Harlem. Aside from our guest, Jerrie Johnson, it also stars Megan Good, Grace Byers, and Shaniqua Shandai, along with Tyler Lepley, who wow is all the way grown. If the premise sounds a little familiar, it should. It’s kind of another iteration of a show that is centered on four female friends who use the city as a backdrop. Tons of places have done this. The four friends formula is not new, but the city part, of course, conjured memories of Sex In The City from the first episode. Unlike Sex In The City, though, Harlem is very well melanated, and it is really told through a Black perspective the city is more the neighborhood being Harlem, and the issues that they tackle absolutely elevate the conversations. First up, we have Jerrie Johnson, one of the stars of Amazon Prime’s fantastic new series Harlem. In it, she plays Tye, a character that I am already obsessed with. Thankfully, Amazon gave us all of the episodes at once, so I’m already gearing up for season two. I wanted to find out what went into cultivating this character, who is much more layered, much more, I think self-realized than a lot of other characters that I’ve seen on screen. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a Black lesbian woman who is a huge success in her career and also kind of jumps around when it comes to the way that she presents and identifies, you know, the first few episodes, she was very masc presenting, and then we see her really tapping into her femininity. Other times, you know, she’s facing some issues that woman knows happen all the time in real lives that any Black woman can relate to when it comes to navigating health care in this skin. Hi, Jerrie, thank you so much for being here. I’m such an instant fan of yours, Jerrie. I am so in love with your character on Harlem. I think that she is unlike any character I’ve ever seen before, and I really just want to get into how you cultivated her and how you feel about, I think, what is a kind of monumental step in representation. [00:03:03][180.4]

Jerrie Johnson: [00:03:05] Well, initially when I read it, I was like, Oh my God, I can get into the pocket of this. It felt like even though the character is from Georgia, right, the language to me felt familiar, like people that I know in Philly and stuff like that and in a little bit of me on the inside, right? And so I put on, I was like, OK, let me where some some fresh, you know, whatevers? And I had on this, I rolled up this beanie had on this button-down shirt and these bomb cargos with these gold huaraches. And I was like, This is Tye, this is Tye. and that helps solidify, like, the character after already reading and finding like where she is in terms of language. And then once I put that on, I was like, Oh, yeah, OK. And then I wore that to each of the auditions in the process, and I was like, This feels like her. It feels familiar. It feels like she’s somebody that we’ve never seen before. The fact that this this character talks like this and walks like this. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that she’s professional, right? Because sometimes we try to code-switch to it or we do code-switch, right? Because because and the reason for code-switching is that our natural language, our natural intonations our natural words aren’t professional. And so then we have to switch it up to make it sound professional in the fact that this is a character who has transcended that in a way who who maybe had to do that in college and after college in order to maintain her her status in white spaces. But now she’s making space for herself, which is what I’d like to see more of in in real life. So Tye think Tye in that way is just is breaking the mold of how we create characters, how we create queer characters and what’s possible. [00:04:55][110.8]

Cortney Wills: [00:04:56] Yes, absolutely. And I think that one thing that really struck me about Tye is that I didn’t really know what to expect. Like, Tye felt like Tye presented at first. I’m like, OK, like here’s like a masc presenting Black lesbian. And then there are scenes where you look a lot more femme and, you know, from the fashion to the makeup to the hair. I I feel like we haven’t seen that. We haven’t seen someone that isn’t just concrete pigeonholed representing this. And I feel like Tye to me was much more representative of women that I know. [00:05:30][33.5]

Jerrie Johnson: [00:05:30] Yes, yes. And me, it’s like. I feel like androgyny is just so important in culture now, right, because it’s creating this conversation that is outside of the binary. How can you be a person who likes women who likes to wear, you know, suits and more masculine things, but also might wear a heel, but also might wear this like a I think sometimes and I’ve had lots of relationships with women, and I feel like a lot of times too in queer relationships, there’s a recreation of gender roles. OK. You are the more masculine one. And so you feel like you need to do this, this, this, this and this, because that’s what a man would do. I’m not interested anymore and being in relationships that exist in that way. I’m just such a fluid person that there has to be some symbiotic fluidity, whereas we’re just existing as people who are sharing space with each other. And I feel like Tye with the way that she dressed in that and the way that she is because there was a moment on set where I was like, Am I not like, Am I not masculine enough? I am. I’m not pushing the masculine of Tye. But in reality, some of the masculine like really masculine women in my life are some of the most feminine women internally. And I feel like even though I present feminine a lot of times, not most of the time, but a lot of times I am. it’s just like, I very I can be very, very, very masculine inside. And so it doesn’t. It’s it’s I think clothes are an extension, they’re an expression. They shouldn’t define who you are, but they should be a tool that we play with to express how we’re feeling on a day to day basis and knowing that that can change. [00:07:23][112.5]

Cortney Wills: [00:07:24] Absolutely. I think that we’re constantly trying to evolve and update in our knowledge and our understanding in the language that should be used. You know, one thing that I didn’t do five years ago that I do now when I meet a person is I ask what their pronouns are, but what we’re talking about right now. It goes beyond pronouns, right? Like we’re saying masc femme. Like we’re talking about Tye’s big dick energy, like, there’s so much. But like, I guess my question is, what are, if any, the right? What are we talking about? It’s not. It’s not Tye’s, pronouns when we say she presents masc or femme or we’re talking about androgyny, like what is that? What’s that? What is this next step that we’re entering and finally seeing? [00:08:05][41.4]

Jerrie Johnson: [00:08:06] I think that we’re going into a space where we are realizing our true essence and our true essence isn’t attached to gender. It isn’t. it isn’t attached to pronouns. It isn’t attached to sexuality. And all of those things don’t have to be connected. There are. They’re all constructs. And if you think about like the house you lived in, like 20, 30 years ago, right? Like as you continue to live in a place, you start to see, Oh, wait, this couch is actually too small for me. I need a bigger couch. Oh, this room is actually configured in a way that actually doesn’t work with how my life is now. Oh, actually, I want to take this wall down in my kitchen because I’d like to see through right? As you grow and change the things around you start to grow and change. Why are our systems still the same? Why are we still working on the same modules? The same language, it’s it’s outdated, quite frankly, and I feel like we’re talking about a deeper thing of like, let me greet you and not try to put you in a box and not say, Oh, she’s a woman. So, oh, oh, oh, he’s a man. So, oh, she’s a masculine performing woman. So, oh, she’s a lesbian. So, oh, she’s gender nonconforming. So dot dot dot dot dot dot dot. But like, who are you? Like, how do you feel like what makes you happy? What makes you excited? What makes you exuberant? Those kinds of questions is what we should be interested in, because it’s in this age of Aquarius and I am an Aquarius. It’s about community and connection, and I feel like sometimes we use gender and language around gender and sexuality as a force of divisiveness. Oh, this is a man so we can pay him more or this is a–, and it wasn’t us who created these rules to begin with. So why are we still navigating in a space that wasn’t meant for our liberation to thrive? [00:10:12][125.9]

Cortney Wills: [00:10:13] Harlem is out. People have seen it. I saw it a month ago and loved it, but people have finally gotten to see it. They’re starting to get really attached to these characters they’re begging for a season two. What impact can you actually feel, like, what is tangible as far as people’s responses or even you sitting down and watching yourself? And your character on the screen, like, what do you feel the impact is so far? [00:10:37][24.2]

Jerrie Johnson: [00:10:38] I feel like people are being seen in a different way. I feel like queer Black women are being seen in a different way. I feel like women who have dealt with fibroids or different health conditions are being seen in a different way. The way we navigate this health care system is being. I think this show pushes up against that, and I truly think that it’s the queer joy that we’ve been wanting. It’s the queer woman who loves her life, who may not live it the way that people think that she should, but is like, very driven and very, actually vulnerable and and has had to jump through a lot of hoops to get where she is, but hasn’t is making it right because life is a journey, not a destination. And so I feel like there’s a lot of queer women who are androgynous, femme, masc-presenting who have said, like, Thank you for this character and I know friends that I have back in San Francisco, which is where, like a lot of my queer community in a language that has been created around my queerness has really was really able to blossom in The Bay there just on a different level. But who are happy that it was in just like a one-note? But I’m not a one-note. So there was no way I was going to step into Tye and like, try to make her one thing. It’s an exploration of joy, and I think queerness is joy. It is freedom. It is liberation. And so I know and hope that people get that from Tye. [00:12:24][105.4]

Cortney Wills: [00:12:24] I think they are getting that from Tye. You know, right after this, I’m talking to Nicole Ari Parker about Sex In The City. And of course, when I watched Harlem, especially the first few episodes, that’s exactly where my mind went. This is for women. It’s modern-day. Harlem is the fifth character, and even the way that Megan’s character narrates, you know, through her like anthropology, the way that Carrie did through her column was really cool, and I saw a lot of similarities. But what was so different and so impactful was how Black this is and how much you guys took that formula and elevated it in a way that applies to us right now and one of those ways. There were so many ways, but one of the most poignant ways for me was with Tye’s health issue and the fact that, you know, we saw on screen something that we’ve all seen in real life and felt in real life, which is we’re stronger than this pain. We’re going to power through it. We got shit to do. And once you’re in there, they are not listening to me. They are not believing me. They are not reacting the right way to my pain, and Tye suffers for it. And so many of us have suffered and will suffer for it. I thought that was so powerful, but it was even more powerful that it was this lesbian character because we never talk about the Black maternal health of lesbians. We don’t talk about the roadblocks, legal, insurance wise and in the health care system that keep Black lesbians from getting the same standard of care, especially when it comes to their reproductive health as white women and as as hetero Black women. And I think that that is so important, and I wondered for you what it was like to be placed in that very, you know, what has been regarded as a very feminine kind of space and inhabiting it. Finally, for all of us to see. [00:14:14][109.3]

Jerrie Johnson: [00:14:14] It, definitely. I knew just reading this great. First of all, our writers are fearless in the best writers, write from experience. And so this came up because of a conversation in the writer’s room where people felt like this happened to me. And so I think it’s time for us to go there, which I think a lot of scenes where I was like, Oh my God, we’re allowed to say this. The writers were in the room saying, We have to go there, and that’s why I think this show is so epic. But for high in this experience, like I, I know what it feels like to be like. I really, you know, I’m a holistic person, right? So do the tinctures. I have a bunch of teas. You come my friends come to my house I’m pulling this and this and this. Let me put something together for you. And I think that there is a mistrust in the health care system. And growing up, I grew up poor when I went to college and I wasn’t able to be on my mom’s welfare health care. I didn’t have health care all throughout college, and I had this one like thing, a swollen finger or something like that, and I had to go and it was like they charged me like an insane amount for the consultation and then to go to this hospital and they were like, Oh no, we can’t take all of it out. You have to go to the specialists and get the rest. And it was just like they sent me all around just to like, charge me up, but I’m like, This sucks. And nobody was having conversations with me about like, How do you get health care or what the importance of whatever is? And so I have an interesting relationship to to hospitals. And then my mom, she she was very, very sick. She passed away at the end of 2019. And she, you know, was resistant to two hospitals for a long time. And I have an aunt who has fibroids who like had a hysterectomy. And like, she’s had to go to multiple doctors to fix what the last doctor did. And so to be put in a position where I can express or show this storyline was so for me, very much empowering and essential. And then on top of that, the assumptions of what it’s like for a masc presenting woman to show up and how, oh, how easy it is for because, you know, doctors were giving Black women hysterectomy since before getting out. You, remember, and a lot of what it does is it stops the reproduction, right? Like, it’s like if we the population, the Black population is is getting to be the majority. So how can we restrict this? And that’s why we have all the shit that we have going on now. But I felt like, Yeah, this is this is this is what needs to be said, and I’m glad I get to say it. [00:17:11][176.4]

Cortney Wills: [00:17:11] Me, too. I’m so glad. Last question is: we are pulling for a season two we are already ideating where you guys will go. Where do you want Tye to go in season two? What would you love to see or what lane would you love to like, go down and explore? [00:17:25][13.2]

Jerrie Johnson: [00:17:29] I’d like to see Tye in love with somebody. I also am a person who can’t who can’t deny the stage, you know, when I’m at parties and stuff, I get up on stage and I’m going to perform. I don’t know what it is in me, but it always happens. I always end up there. And I wonder what that means for a Tye like when does Tye like really loosened up, whether that’s through love or through something outside of her work and her relationship with her friends. And I also want to meet Tye’s queer friends because all queer- you know, queer people are not just around hetero people, and Tye does have a queer group of friends, and so I want to explore what that looks like. [00:18:18][49.1]

Cortney Wills: [00:18:18] I love that. Thank you so much, Jerrie. This has been such a pleasure. I’m such a fan. And it was really great to speak with you today. [00:18:24][6.0]

Jerrie Johnson: [00:18:25] Yeah, it’s great to speak with you, too. [00:18:27][1.4]

Cortney Wills: [00:18:27] Okay. You take care. If you haven’t tuned in to Harlem on Amazon Prime, now is the time you should have some time off coming up for the holidays, and I’m telling you this show is worth the binge. While Harlem navigates the way four Black women navigate sex in their city. It’s finally time for us to revisit the original Sex In The City, thanks to HBO Max’s new limited series. And Just Like That. Let’s get into this conversation I had with Nicole Ari Parker about this new iteration of Sex In The City. Nicole Ari Parker is not the only Black face that we’ll see on this limited series, and that is a very good thing. Karen Pittman, who is such a prolific actress, plays Dr. Nya Wallace, and if you have caught either of the first two episodes that dropped December 9th on HBO Max, then you know that both of these women really kind of came in with a bang. When I talked to Nicole though, it was a couple of days ago and she was still under strict orders to share no details with me. I had not seen any of the episodes of And Just Like That yet. So there won’t be any spoilers, but by the time you hear this, everything will make sense. Hey, Nicole, it’s nice to see you. Gosh, it’s been a minute. First off, I mean, there’s so much anticipation around this reboot. How does it feel right now? We’re days away from the premiere. [00:19:48][81.3]

Nicole Ari Parker: [00:19:50] I know. And I still I’m sworn to secrecy, you know that, right? I signed over a few. I don’t even know what I signed, but I can’t say anything. The firstborn. And at first, let me say everything’s in the can. Like you said, it’s premiering day after tomorrow, but they are very aware that they’ve added these four characters, right? It’s not like, oh, 20 years later, everybody gets a new brown friend. Let’s not say anything like they are, really, but they’re staying on brand with the show. It’s a half-hour. It’s a comedy. It’s a it’s a cable show. It’s it’s fun, it’s flirty, it’s about fashion. But if you’re going to make two women become friends because they’re moms and then also deal with the genuine friendship, but also have them trip up on each other about how all of our racial relations end up like they usually end up over a cup of coffee. Right? We’re not always in a heated debate with our white friends, right? But we might trip up over both of us going to the department store and who gets approached right. Let in real-time things happen that make the record skip. And that’s the kind of way that they’re dealing with it, which is kind of cool because you want to see where real friendships can happen and where they can’t and where they can heal. So it’s been a really fun journey this season with them in And Just Like That, and I think, you know, they did a really great job also to avoid tokenism, right? Like, I’m one Black woman. Karen’s character is another one. But you know, both of them, right? They have full jobs, full lives, full anxieties, full issues, full happiness. Like all of the things, they are totally for women. And I don’t know. I mean, they diversified the writers room, too, which was very smart. [00:21:48][118.4]

Cortney Wills: [00:21:49] Well, that is good to know. And of course, there are so many things that we don’t know about this series, but there are a few things that we do know, like the fact that you will be playing Lisa Todd Wexley described as this Park Avenue mother of three, a documentarian who’s kind of new to the group and seems to really have it all together. My first question for you is what was your relationship with Sex In The City prior to signing on to this project? Were you really into it when it was on? Did you more catch it on reruns like were you a fan? [00:22:21][31.5]

Nicole Ari Parker: [00:22:22] Just a fan, who, I watched it every now and then, or, you know, my favorite parts were the lunch scenes where girlfriends try to figure stuff out. I sometimes joked, I had an interview, joked, and I said I used to wonder why they didn’t have any Black friends. I was like, Y’all wouldn’t- half of these problems wouldn’t exist. We would have got you together. But I love them. I love the show, and I was starstruck when I first met SJ and Kristin and Cynthia. That first scene that I shot that. And it was all four of us, and I was like, Oh my goodness, this is really happening, and they’re all so beautiful in real life. Everybody’s talking about them being grown and wrinkles and a whole lot of dumb stuff. They are so radiant. I mean, and just that’s the last thing you see when you’re just standing there. I mean, they built an empire. This is like a 20 plus-year-old franchise that’s been movies, the series. [00:23:18][56.0]

Cortney Wills: [00:23:20] Sex In The City had such a profound effect on the culture, and while it was definitely missing melanin, I think that it made an impression on everyone, but especially women of the time. Was there any pressure for you going into this kind of, you know, pretty closed circle? So many people know these characters so well, and so I wonder what it’s like to come into a juggernaut like that. [00:23:43][22.9]

Nicole Ari Parker: [00:23:43] That’s a great question. I think once I read the first script, I knew that writing-wise, I was in good hands. And but what made me nervous the most was when you’re talking about acting, it’s what we say the rhythm of the piece. You know, the music is a character in the piece. The self-consciousness is a character in the piece. The fashion is a character in the piece. So I could have on a full outfit, turban, bracelets, a bag, glasses. But it’s this character’s Tuesday. I have to act like this is a totally normal way that I go to Starbucks. [00:24:23][40.0]

Cortney Wills: [00:24:25] Talk to me about the fashion. [00:24:25][0.7]

Nicole Ari Parker: [00:24:26] It was off the chain, and then just be like conscious of real-time. Like there’s a sound department that’s like Nicole, your glasses are hitting your necklace, your earring is hitting your– like, well, they put me in these fabulous earrings, so we’re going to have to work it out. So, yeah, it was just being in the rhythm of this beloved show was because you don’t want to come in and make the record skip in a bad way. Be your full self as an artist, but you know it is something to be mindful of, is the comic elements and, you know, and the fashion. [00:25:01][34.6]

Cortney Wills: [00:25:02] I’m glad that you mentioned some of the early commentary that came out when those first promo shots hit the web. People were going nuts. There was a lot of blowback. People were criticizing the ladies looks their wrinkles their gray hair and kind of freaking out. And it seemed like Sarah Jessica Parker and the other women kind of came back swinging and were just very real about the fact that this is what they look like and why is that the focus? When I look at you, it’s very clear that Black don’t crack. You look exactly like you did when I interviewed you 15 years ago. I wonder, as a Black actress, how does that ageism issue bump up against navigating Hollywood? When I would imagine for you, it’s not so wrapped up in your face. But what are the other ways that ageism or the element of reaching a higher age affects the way that you move through your career now? [00:25:55][53.0]

Nicole Ari Parker: [00:25:56] I love that. I think it’s frustrating because on the artistic side, you get better as an artist. Now that I’ve had kids and, you know, I pick up Shakespeare now, I know exactly what I’m saying when it’s when you’re discussing epic choices in life, life or death, you know, like, I could play a superhero now like I could, I could talk to you, I could catch my kid if she fell. Cooked food, get dressed up, Have a meeting like, the ageism is that it puts you in this one space of, OK, well, now that you’re grown up, you’re the president of the company. Okay, but where’s the rest of my life? All right. Well, you’re you’re a mom, OK? But like, there’s these boxes and there’s no movement, no dynamic fleshing out of a full life. Like, the irony is that you, you build this amazing life. You become this even way sexier person because you know who you are. And the writing sometimes isn’t there, right? It sometimes gets overblown like cougar or but there’s no real appreciation for the fierceness of being a grown woman and the decisions you have to make on a daily basis and the balls you have in the air. And it’s just it’s changing because more of us are behind the scenes producing stories. But I think we could really improve in that department. You know, the minute I read like three scripts and it’s like the mom, I mean, the character should have, it might as well be called the mom. Like, I’m I’m. I should be wearing the cape in this movie. Full on, right? [00:27:41][105.5]

Cortney Wills: [00:27:42] I hope that this show opens up what happens after 40, for white women, for Black women, for any women. Because you’re right, that demographic has been largely written out of the story. So while we have a million examples of what it looks like to run around the city in your 20s and 30s when you’re single with no kids and no husband and your dream job and a closet full of shoes, we never really see what happens next. And maybe that’s also what kind of feeds into this fear of getting older. [00:28:12][29.8]

Nicole Ari Parker: [00:28:13] Not that Sarah Jessica Parker is the executive producer of a 20-year-old show. Not that she’s fabulous, that she’s about to go do Broadway and movie. Not that she’s also a mother and a wife that she’s like. I walked into that set and was like, I need to catch up. Not to oh shit, I’m in a new phase of slowing down. I was like inspired to pull my project off the shelf. Just everything like I stopped that panic thing. And the minute we stopped doing it, I think everyone else will stop doing it. I have to look at the grown women in your life. The actualized grown women in your life who represent what’s ahead for you, where you need to dust yourself off and be as fierce instead of chasing something someone or some look, that isn’t even they couldn’t hold a candle to you. I I feel brand new. I feel brand new because there’s so much stuff that I haven’t done in life is proving that you have time to do it. That 50 to 80. Look at Rita Moreno, OK? Look at Cicily that just died, Miss Tyson. You know, like, she was still on Broadway. These are the kind of feelings I get about being grown now. I have wrinkles. I have a stomach. I have jiggly arms. I put it all together for y’all, sometimes with the- [00:29:36][83.6]

Cortney Wills: [00:29:37] I don’t see one line on this face, but, okay. [00:29:40][3.1]

Nicole Ari Parker: [00:29:40] I feel so fresh. I feel like I know so much and I can’t wait to get started. You know, I have no burdens, you know, no like, Oh, I’m grown and no, no I feel brand new like y’all like and it’s good for for my kids, for my husband, for my brain, my self-care to keep exploring and keep living. Yeah, and I think it’s a little bit of the okey doke. We get played by women, you know, on on us as women like, let’s get everybody scared about eye crow’s feet and and gray hair. Let’s get everybody scared to distract them from the takeover. Because if she knew she was beautiful, if she knew she was smart, if she knew how much she had learned in life and how prepared she was for this next chapter, she would own the building. But everybody keeps us in diet mode and eye cream mode that we don’t. We waste another ten years, right? And I let all that go. I let it go the minute I had kids, really, I had kids at thirty-four and I just felt unstoppable. It was a lot. It was hard. It was ooh. But. And they’re 15 and 16 now. And but it was just something kicked in like, I’m not going to worry about anything dumb ever again. So don’t fall for the okey-doke. [00:31:02][81.7]

Cortney Wills: [00:31:03] Talk to me a little bit about your character. I know you can’t say much, but tell us what you can. [00:31:07][3.8]

Nicole Ari Parker: [00:31:07] I think it’s– well. I love that my character is so loaded. Say like she is rich for real. And yet that’s her life. It’s not overblown, you know? And we know that lady. And we as a community know that exists, right? But I think it’s good to show it and to show all aspects of our community. You know, I think that was really great about soul food and soul food, the series that you had, real siblings that are in a real family, the one that’s the lawyer, you’re the one that owns the beauty shop, the one that is the stay at home mom, you know, so I like that they even went there, didn’t just hire Black actors. They created full, fully realized characters that really exist. [00:31:53][45.7]

Cortney Wills: [00:31:54] Nicole, thank you so much. It was a pleasure, as always, to speak with you. [00:31:58][3.5]

Nicole Ari Parker: [00:31:59] Thank you. Thank you for this great interview. [00:32:00][0.6]

Cortney Wills: [00:32:01] I cannot wait to see you in this new series. I have been freaking out about it ever since you were announced, so I’ll be rooting for you and watching along with everyone else. Thank you for listening to Acting Up. If you like what you heard, please give us a five-star review and subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcast and share it with everyone you know. Please email all questions, comments, and suggestions to podcasts@theGrio.com. Acting Up is brought to you by theGrio and executive produced by Cortney Wills and produced by Cameron Blackwell. For more with me and Acting Up, check us out on Instagram @ActingUp.Pod. [00:32:01][0.0]


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